Maybe you could think of other answers to your own question than aluminium smelters?

You also have not answered this question of mine:
“I wonder though, you continually say you are afraid of not having a job, even though Icelandic unemployment is the lowest in Europe – and this is not because of the existing smelters. The market is very tight. What makes you so afraid of the future that you are endlessly going on about that?”

But in reality, there is not a lack of jobs, but you are saying people rather want a smelter job and more money than what they are currently doing.

Of course in the end, arguments for the sake of nature or the climate or people’s lives in third world countries where bauxite is mined, can not compete with the money people expect to get from getting Alcoa in.

One thing we havent talked about yet, is the local economic impact of a smelter. Yes, smelters provide jobs. They provide them at a higher salary than previous industry, such as fish processing work. Thus the old local industry can not get enough workers and closes down (like the fish processor in Reydarfjordur). This happens to most local industry, and thus the community becomes dependent on a single corporation to provide them with everything.
By that point, if not all appear’s to be bright, for example if there all of a sudden does appear to be pollution and health problems, or if people get bullied into work (like was on the news about the Century smelter at Grundartangi) or anything negative happens you can not do anything about it, because you are completely dependent.
If the smelter wants to expand, you dont have a choice any more. If they want to build another dam, you dont have a choice.

This has even happened to whole countries, like Jamaica. Now of course Iceland has a more diverse economy than Jamaica, but it is a small country none the less and the economic impacts of aluminium smelters are major. On the national level the same ‘crowding out’ effect as economists will happen if there are many smelters built.

What happens after fourty years when there is an old smelter and a silted up dam reservoir that can not provide enough power any more. What happens if the corporation decides to leave? Your community is broken and has no local industry left to provide jobs, there will just be a couple of sheep with bad teeth from the pollution and a lot of empty buildings.

regards johann

“What should people do for jobs in Husavik if Bakki is not built?”
You said — There are currently ten men and thirty women in the Husavik area who are seeking a job (that does not mean they are unemployed). Seems like most people are doing fine.
I dont want to tell people what kind of job they should be doing. I want to bring the real facts about heavy industry up and examine the consequences of these smelters. —

We are very well avare of the dangers and what else comes with the smelters. But we would like to be able to work in our own township and having to reduce to moving to other towns for jobs. People that origin from Husavik and have an intrest and education in working in heavy industry, should be able to do so without your meddling and you letting your bulldog mouth overruning your puppydog actions.

But now I see you´r just intrested in getting noticed and scared of beeing forgotten. I personaly just want to work without a person who only cares about notice from media having to run around screaming “danger danger” when everything is beeing made right.

In that case, slavery would have still existed. It was legal at the time.

“As far as you´r comment on Condeleeza and president Bush, He has not violated laws by invading Iraq.”
I am not sure how much you followed it, but it was actually illegal. It is not legal for one country to invade another without backing of the UN security council. And no, I did not particularly approve of Clinton’s politics.

Heavy industry is an outdated concept because it is utterly unsustainable. It is not ‘semantics’ to quote tons of greenhouse gases produced. You have to take that sort of a thing into account. You have to take the mining into account and how much is destroyed for that, both the environmental and human cost of it.

Let me ask you this if you are so concerned about being legal. What will happen if there is another round of climate negotiations and finally they decide the sensible thing and cut down emissions by, say, 20% in 15 years which is not what I want (I would be demanding more) but that is what the EU wants. Say that would be the next treaty.
How are you going to do it if you just built yet another smelter in Iceland? It will be impossible unless you close the smelter which would cost millions in compensation to the companies. So you wouldnt be able to fulfill your obligations, legally or ethically.

Note that, and here is more semantics for you again, Iceland already has the highest greenhouse gas production per person in Europe, around 17 tons of CO2 equivalent per person, thanks to heavy industry.

Icelandic boy, you can say for everything I say that you dont like that foreigners should stop meddling, but that does not change the facts.

“What should people do for jobs in Husavik if Bakki is not built?”
There are currently ten men and thirty women in the Husavik area who are seeking a job (that does not mean they are unemployed). Seems like most people are doing fine.
I dont want to tell people what kind of job they should be doing. I want to bring the real facts about heavy industry up and examine the consequences of these smelters.

And what do you think the effect of regular large cargo ships coming in to Bakki will have on the wales there, and the inevitable fluoride pollution in the water?

Why should you endure disturbance at your work place. I think that is a retorical question. Since there is no perspective on legal or political change on this issue in the short term, we feel direct action is needed to stop work that we deem to be unethical.

“And why do you take up health issues with workers in the smelting factories, when there are dangers in every job?”

When you are painting a house, you know that you can fall down from your ladder. That is a known risk that you can consciously take.

When you are working in a smelter, do you actually know your risks? Do you know whether you have a higher chance of getting e.g. pancreatic cancer than if you work somewhere else? Can you trust your employer to tell the truth? In the last, as you can see from some of the links just above, or just look it up yourself, it has become apparent that Alcoa, Rio Tinto etc are not truthful about the risks, nor about the pollution from the smelters.

“but we are not all afraid of the future like you are.”
Yes, of course I am afraid of the effects of what we are doing to the earth’s ecosystems, we are clearly making a mess of it and that will have consequences.
I wonder though, you continually say you are afraid of not having a job, even though Icelandic unemployment is the lowest in Europe – and this is not because of the existing smelters. The market is very tight. What makes you so afraid of the future that you are endlessly going on about that?

About comment moderation – you have answered your own question. Imagine you had a radio program anyone can phone in, most people are fine, some sympathetic and some critical, but there a couple of listeners, who phone in endlessly because they have nothing better to do with their lives, and shout abuse, threats and bullshit like get-a-job. Would you just let them talk endlessly? You will have noticed that after your first comments you can post without moderation.

And yes, I have a full time job, pretty much everyone coming to Saving Iceland camps works or is a student or something and chooses to spend their time off on these issues. Nobody gets payed for it.

You said:
“And what is strange about foreigners protesting? Dont foreigners protest against destruction of the Amazon rainforest? Is it strange to protest against the war in Iraq?
Alcoa is an American company, Rio Tinto is registered in London. Is it strange for Americans and English people to be opposed to the operations of ‘their’ companies?”

Well what is wrong with a nation trying to help another nation i destress under the regime of Saddam Hussein. It was a mobilization of almost every major industry country in the world. That is a direct comment on your war in Iraq and your Bush comment as far as him beeing a leader of a free country.

Us as Icelanders should make our own mind about the future of our country. Saving Iceland is not a group trying to set free the Icelandic people. You have a problem with our way of making a living. And why do you say that aluminium is an out of date form of work?
The plane you flew in on is aluminium. that seems no problem to you.
And lastly why do you censor your homepage don´t you belive in humanrights? and don´t answer with people swearing and leaving unhealthy comments. We are grownups and we can filter out the jerks.

As far as you´r comment on Condeleeza and president Bush, He has not violated laws by invading Iraq to stop the injustice that was going on at the time. You seem fine with former president Clinton and his invasion of Bosnia. Its simpel to any normal human, that if you have a problem with Bush you should have a problem with Clinton and even president Lincoln who invaded the south to free enslaved people.

What you say about climathe change, well as far as I go, there is nothing wrong with evolving, Iceland has evolved greatly and beyond belive as far as number of people who live here. Why are you against the world getting richer and stronger in a more capable position to take care of it self.

Answer a couple of simpel questions:
What should people do for jobs in Husavik if Bakki is not built?
Why should we as a free people in Iceland have endure disturbance at our workplaces.
And why do you take up health issues with workers in the smelting factories, when there are dangers in every job?
You know the risk when you take the job, but we are not all afraid of the future like you are.
And Helguvik smelter is a promise made to the people because of the armybase that left.

We have a life to live and there will be no future to breathe in if we do not have jobs.

That is the problem with corporations. If I commit a crime, I can get prosecuted very easily. Protestors go on an action knowing they might get arrested and maybe convicted for something they believe in.
It is on the other hand very difficult to convict directors of corporations for what they have done in that function. It’s what the Ltd. stands for that you find in the names of many corporations: ‘limited’ as in ‘limited liability’. Investors and shareholders only have a limited responsibility for the actions of their companies. So nobody for example got convicted for Rio Tinto’s sandline scandal in the pacific (do a websearch) even though many people died from it.

However, companies can get sued:

Former workers sue Alcoa
http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html/20080214T200000-0500_132536_OBS_FORMER_WORKERS_SUE_ALCOA_.asp

Texas groups sue Alcoa for alleged air pollution
http://uk.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=A1f4cfufaa1IEWYBgaxLBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByNGxmazk4BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2lyZAR2dGlkAw–/SIG=12apk0got/EXP=1219410719/**http%3A//www.citizen.org/documents/Alcoa_press_clips.doc

Hundreds to sue Alcoa over WA pollution
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2008/s2234423.htm

Widow Sues ALCOA for $20 Million
Julu 28, 2006 – A woman from Vonore, Tennessee, whose husband recently died of asbestos-related esophageal cancer, has filed a lawsuit against ALCOA Inc. for $20 million. Carolyn Welch claims that her husband died of cancer caused by asbestos at the company’s Tennessee plants.
http://www.mesotheliomasos.com/newsAlcoawidow.php

Etcetera, just do some web searching, there are hundreds of examples.

GROUPS SUE ALCOA OVER POLLUTION
Lawsuit alleges that improvements at Rockdale smelter resulted in excessive
levels of air pollutants

Austin American Statesman
Thursday, December 27, 2001

By Kevin Carmody

Three groups sued Alcoa Inc. on Wednesday, alleging that the company’s
Rockdale smelter illegally dumped more than 1 million tons of health damaging
pollutants into Central Texas air since 1986.

The lawsuit filed in federal court in Austin seeks a permanent injunction
that would, in part, force Alcoa to spend millions of dollars to reduce
pollution levels and pay $100 million or more in fines for alleged violations
of the federal Clean Air Act.

Neighbors for Neighbors, Environmental Defense and Public Citizen say that
Alcoa made significant improvements to the power plants at its smelter in the
mid 1980s without getting the permits or installing the pollution controls
that federal law requires when such improvements increase pollution levels.

The excess 1 million tons of lung damaging sulphur dioxide, nitrogen oxides
and soot particles is 10 to 20 times more than the amount the plant should
have emitted between 1986 and 2000 if it had installed the required
pollution control equipment, said Reed Zars, a Wyoming lawyer who is
representing the groups.

The Texas Natural Resource Conservation Commission and the U.S. Environmental
Protection Agency have not finished investigations into whether Alcoa
violated state or federal law. The state investigation started in March after
Neighbors for Neighbors, a 500 member citizens group, discovered records in
conservation commission files that the group says support its allegations.

Alcoa spokesman Jim Hodson said company officials had not been served with
the lawsuit and couldn’t respond to its specific claims but that Alcoa stands
by earlier statements that the maintenance work didn’t violate federal or
state laws. He also said Alcoa now plans to spend $100 million to
significantly reduce nitrogen oxide and sulphur dioxide emissions.

“After all the facts are presented and evaluated, we are confident the courts
would be in agreement with our position,” a statement that Hodson provided
said.

An issue in the case might be whether Alcoa’s improvements constituted a
significant enough modification to fall under stricter federal rules.

An emissions increase of 40 tons per year is considered significant for
sulphur dioxide under federal law. Alcoa averaged an additional 5,800 tons of
sulphur dioxide releases during the two years after the plant improvements
or 145 times the amount that should have prompted emissions controls, the
lawsuit alleges.

The facility emits about 105,000 tons of pollutants annually.

Your comments on Iceland –
Just because Condoleezza Rice is the first female US secretary of state, it doesnt mean George Bush is the most democratic and free government the US has had.

And how democratic is it that the social democratic alliance are pushing one after the other heavy industry project forward, even though they promised a moratorium in their manifesto?

Pollution –
You are not talking about pollution, but about greenhouse gas emissions quota, which every western country has under the Kyoto protocol.
Well, let me tell you that Century-Nordural’s Helguvik smelter under construction, does not even have an emissions permit (to claim part of Iceland’s quotum). It is being built however, already 150 million $ dollars have been spent by Century on the project (figure is from their 2nd quarter 08 results). If both Helguvik and Bakki are pushed through Iceland will exceed what is is allowed to do under Kyoto.
So this is about greehouse gases.
Pollution from the smelters are another matter. Recently there was a report that sheep in the vicinity of the Century smelter in Grundartangi (which is partially powered by Hellisheidi) were suffering health/teeth problems from the smelter’s fluoride pollution.
Workers in smelters suffer more diseases, e.g. pancreatic cancer, than other workers due to exposion to the pollution.

Do you know that the Alcan smelter just dumps it’s waste including spent potlining (which is a major health hazard) into the sea? It even admits to this on it’s own website!
I dont think you can compare that with a couple of lithium batteries. It is a bit of a rediculous argument, in the line of: everyone who wants to do something against climate change should just stop breathing now…

And what is strange about foreigners protesting? Dont foreigners protest against destruction of the Amazon rainforest? Is it strange to protest against the war in Iraq?
Alcoa is an American company, Rio Tinto is registered in London. Is it strange for Americans and English people to be opposed to the operations of ‘their’ companies?

Of course you need a job and a paycheck but aluminium is an outdated, destructive way of doing it. The loggers in the Amazon also say they need their jobs and paychecks.
Any self respecting country should find sustainable ways to create jobs instead of destructive ways. I’m not telling you how to live your life, you figure it out. But I do know that the aluminium industry is making a mess around the world and is making a mess out of some of the most beautiful areas in Europe which happen to be in Iceland.

If you want to know why we were at Hellisheidi, maybe you should properly read the press release which explains why.
http://www.savingiceland.org/?p=2425&language=en

Do you really think that when a smelter comes to a small 2500 people comunity, that the jobs on the smelter are the only ones. Let me tell you, NO. it brings flourishing jobs in all aspects of life. but i guess you do not have a mans best intress in mind.

Have anyone of you ever had a bluecollar job, where you can come home with a chek and be proud to have served community and your family?
Tell us what you are achiving?
Poverty vs a slightly cleaner air.

please let me see some answers from someone who is protesting.

Further more, I wittnesed one of your protest on Hellisheiði, and you guys where walking around with cameras, mobilephones and walkie talkies. All of those items use lithium batteries which is nonbiodegradable substance that pollutes more than a 3 tonn diesel truck in one year.
When I came up to the entrance of the place, I was told that you had closed down the working site until the media got there. And you locked yourself to the machinery and forklifts and what not. That is not a peacefull protest in my eyes, instead you seem like mediawhores, that only care about getting noticed, and not achiving anything with the protest.

Let us have our jobs and our money and get one yourself. We are a free country with freedom of speach. To stay free, we need our jobs and our paychecks.

http://www.nlcnet.org/article.php?id=237

In a recent poll half the Icelandic nation was against any more heavy industry!

During the building of the dams at Kárahnjúkar half the people was also roughly the percentage of those who were against the Kárahnjúkar dams. And now, today, a Gallup poll is published showing that 42% of the nation are against Century building another smelter in Helguvík. http://visir.is/article/20080717/FRETTIR01/150651612

Get you facts right Gunnar, before you send condescending messages to just about the only upright protesters in this country.

And by the way, stuff your fuel prices!

Hope thats not going to be the future for fjardaal….

Jón B Jóhannesson